Curse

Alexiel · Apr 25, 2005, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain ap Cuilleain

They could kill two undead with one stone if they arranged for either Primary and Secondary Monks to use a Signet of Capture on a Boss in the Catacombs in order to obtain Healing Breeze. In fact, most of the professions could use a quest of this sort, though you should only have to use the Signet once, just to learn what it is and how to use one. I know I've never seen one, since I haven't made it even to Piken Square yet. (*Blush!*) But it would be a good way to introduce us to the concept.

That is a stellar idea, really, I've never used a signet of capture, myself, and would stumble through it when I need to. I intend to take a shot at it come preview event in Old Ascalon.

Having a guide to using them within pre-searing would be advantageous, I feel. It'd certainly make me feel more confident with them.

I've not made it to piken square either despite trying a few times. Looks like I might need some players to go with me, not just henchmen.

Quote:

Urk. You mean Sig of Capture is a skill that remains in your set like any other?

Hmm. That's a good question. I always assumed it was a one-off buy, you have it in your skill lineup and when you use it it is replaced with the skill you captured.

To capture another skill you need to buy a new signet of capture due to the original one being replaced with the captured skill, yes?

That was my understanding of it, anyway, but now you have me wanting to check.

OrangeArrow · Apr 25, 2005, 10:34 AM // 10:34

Nice Suggestions I do think that there will be more trainers in pre Searing Ascalon at the very least another mesmer and Elementalist trainer.

I Think A primary Mesmer should get Phantom Pain, Ether Feast and Energy Tap from Sebedoh instead of having skills that overlap with althea. Keep Althea's Skills the same. Add Inspiration Mesmer Trainer or Give Althea another quest to give to Mesmers.

Necros look ok to me
Warriors ok though It would be nice if Devona had an warrior only quest.
Elementalist needs more trainers.
Monks Look ok maybe give out mending somewhere early so new players can experiment with it.
Ranger- Needs A ritual early on to introduce them better.

It was my impression that Healing breeze was added as a Monk starting skill only because Monks needed a self heal to survive better early on. I know it was an starting skill before pre-searing ascalon was added but in the Feb and March Betas Monks started with just Orison of Healing and Banish.

If secondary Monks got healing breeze in the long term there will be less primary monks. Most new players dont see Divine Favor as that great of a primary bonus its takes about 8-10 points before it makes a noticeable differnce in healing plus they dont SEE the divine favor Bonus unless they heal themselves. Heck sometimes i want to debate with myself that an Elementalist/energy Storage/heal other build is better than an Monk/Divine Favor/Healing Word Build.

I also beleive that if a secondary monk could get HB in pre-searing ascalon it will probably be massivly abused as a self heal. Though it would probabaly make the gates of Kyrta Mission way easier. I know self heals are noobish but necessary in a party of 4.

With a few points in healing prayers HB quickly eclipses any other self heal of any attribute line (ok maybe not soul feast). the only other Comprable early selfheal is Heal Area but that heals enemies too. For a True Healer The Heal other spell offer comprable healing power but lacks the over time "bonus", but still should be able to carry most secondary Healers till Lion's Arch. Ideally healing Breeze should be on Captain Greywind easy to get once you get to Lion's Arch but you still have to "earn" it by getting to him.

For an casual player it would probabaly take 2 weeks to Get to LA.

My two cents.

Scaphism · Apr 25, 2005, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain ap Cuilleain

They could kill two undead with one stone if they arranged for either Primary and Secondary Monks to use a Signet of Capture on a Boss in the Catacombs in order to obtain Healing Breeze. In fact, most of the professions could use a quest of this sort, though you should only have to use the Signet once, just to learn what it is and how to use one. I know I've never seen one, since I haven't made it even to Piken Square yet. (*Blush!*) But it would be a good way to introduce us to the concept.

I've said this before and it's the perfect chance to say it again: the tutorial needs to teach how to use the signet of capture. You captured this point perfectly. The signet of capture has the chance to be a fun mechanic in the game for people who truly love to "collect" skills, but instead it has fallen completely by the wayside.

Most of the people I've played with since the WPE have never tried using a signet of capture, ever. That's 9 out of every 10.
I tried it once, at the end of a BWE, because I'd never tried it before and I just wanted to see how it worked. It's not very intuitive, but by introducing it EARLY, you acclimate people to the idea of using a capture signet later on. The first time they run into a boss monster the thought will flit across their mind: "I wonder what skills he has, and I wonder if I can capture any of them?" I've never had a group stop and say they wanted to capture a skill. It's something lacking in the game- they have the potential to make it an important part of the game but instead it sits, gathering dust.

Enough harping about the tutorial.

Quote:

Urk. You mean Sig of Capture is a skill that remains in your set like any other?

Yes. Signet of Capture is a skill, it takes up one of your 8 skill slots. You use it on a boss when you see him starting to use a skill, and it begins charging (the animation is like watching a spell with a long cast time charge up). You can cancel it by hitting escape or moving, just like you would cancel any normal spell.
That said, buying a signet of capture is slightly different than any other skill. Most skills cost 10x(# of skills bought) gold. Signet of capture gets it's own category, so the first time you buy it, it costs only 10 gold. You might have already bought 5 other skills, so learning a 6th will cost you 60 gold, but the first time you buy signet of capture, it costs 10 gold. You can then go out and learn 7 more skills, bringing your total to 12. Your second signet of capture will cost you 20 gold, even though your 13th skill will cost 130 gold. That's how it worked in the past, at least.

----
Finally, skill types that are lacking in presearing:
Rangers: Interrupts, pet attacks
Mesmers: Interrupts, energy drains (though they need something to spend their energy on besides conjure)
Warriors: Defensive stances- in PVE, warriors play like tanks. Teach them about tanking early.
Monks: Get rid of Reversal of Fortune. I like reversal, don't get me wrong. But only on my level 20 monk who has 10+ levels of divine favor. Reversal of Fortune is awful in the early game. It costs you 5 energy to reverse an attack that in all likelyhood will be doing 5 or 6 damage. That's HORRIBLE. Give me 25 healing from Orison any day of the week. Reversal makes protection look bad in the early game, and it's no surprise. I hate reversal on secondary monks because they have no divine favor, and the same principal applies to level 4 monks with 2 levels in Divine Favor.
Condition and Hex removal can wait for later.
Necromancers: They're ok for now, though I wouldn't mind plague touch. A well wouldn't be horrid either, but again, you have to save something for later.
Elementalists: Already stated. 2 spells from each line, + Aura of Restoration. Spam attack + something typical of the line. Get the spam attacks out of the way early, at least. Can't say I like it, since it encourages using horrible skills, but maybe they'll get the stigma of "starter/newbie skills" that they fully deserve.

Alexiel · Apr 25, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

I've said this before and it's the perfect chance to say it again: the tutorial needs to teach how to use the signet of capture. You captured this point perfectly. The signet of capture has the chance to be a fun mechanic in the game for people who truly love to "collect" skills, but instead it has fallen completely by the wayside.

Most of the people I've played with since the WPE have never tried using a signet of capture, ever. That's 9 out of every 10.

Absolutely true. An achievement I made in the final BWE was to reach Lion's Arch (yes, yes, after three BWEs) and the undead boss at the end of Gates of Kryta mission had Death Nova. One of my party was begging us not to kill it, it actually got quite annoying, until he'd captured it. The capturing didn't take that long, I think, and I was worried not killing it just for skills would mean we'd die (since we were having enough trouble shortly after that point as it was) but we did ok. I can't say for certain (being the monk) whether anyone was actively not attacking it for the sake of our skill capturer or if they were just cleaning up the lessers first which just bonused as giving him the opportunity.

This was the only time - ever - I have heard the signet mentioned in game.

I have utterly no idea where one even gets it as I do intend to remedy my ignorance of its use as soon as I can play, availability permitting. Can you get it in post-searing Ascalon City from the get-go? From whom, when and where? I want to capture Empathy with my N/Me as soon as I can. Good excuse to try the signet.

Sausaletus Rex · Apr 25, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

One of the things to keep in mind is that a lot of specific skills being mentioned here are available as quest rewards just a little later on. Sprint and Mending can be acquired somewhere around Post-Searing Ascalon, last I checked, and that's good enough to ge them in people's hands quickly. What's important is that the trainers in Pre-Searing offer diversity, that they cover the bases. Trying to give them uber and good skills is a losing battle because as the game shifts and adapts so will the best skills for a given character. That's with set skills being handed out, if they offered a few choices for your character then it's another story. But with each trainer having a set list there are going to be some duds, it's just inevitable. But as long as they aren't duds for *everyone*, as long as they point out some of the paths you can take and don't convince you to slam the door, then they can skate by. It's not Mending that's important. It's letting players know about maintained enchantments that a Monk can use. It's not Shield Stance, it's letting Warriors know there are defensive stances to help them tank. It's letting Elementalists know that Water and Earth exist.

That's why I feel the Ranger is a bit underserved because they get a prep and an attack skill twice. Which is nice, the ones they get are fairly solid and good combos for the newbie lands (Well, not Point Blank Shot...) but haivng two trainers teach the same lesson is a bit counter-productive. I'd rather see something like traps or stances introduced by the Wilderness trainer and leave prepping up your attacks to the Marksmanship guy. It means that a bow Ranger has a bit fewer options walking into the Academy but that any Ranger has a few more.

Quote:

It was my impression that Healing breeze was added as a Monk starting skill only because Monks needed a self heal to survive better early on. I know it was an starting skill before pre-searing ascalon was added but in the Feb and March Betas Monks started with just Orison of Healing and Banish.

If secondary Monks got healing breeze in the long term there will be less primary monks.

Your theory is interesting but it falls apart a bit because every single secondary and primary gets some form of self-healing. Secondary Monks get Orison already. All Mesmers get Ether Feast. All Elementalist Aura of Restoration. All Rangers Troll Unguent. All Warrior Healing Signet. All Necromancers Life Siphon. You can't avoid them, they're on the first trainer you go to. That Healing Breeze is a good and powerful version of a self-heal isn't a reason to keep it in only a primary Monk's hands. If letting others use it means that there will be fewer Monks then there's something wrong with the Monk profession or will Healing Breeze. Not with secondary characters using it because they'll all eventually be able to, it's just a question of when.

Keeping it solely with Monks is degenerative. Allowing secondaries to pick it up earlier and easier allows for more flexibility and options for everyone. I'll take the later option even if it means primary Monks are outclassed. Because, as I said, if it's just Healing Breeze that makes people pick a Monk first there are bigger and more structural problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain ap Cuilleain

Um . . . just where does Signet of Capture first show up?

Like many others I've pretty much ignored the SoC for a while. It's a bloody stupid mechanic that requires you to disrupt your group and the flow of the game for the chance of capturing a spell from something you should be trying your hardest to defeat. Try capturing a stance or a shout sometimes and see how much fun that is. But also because the other ways of acquiring skills are far better and easier (Actually right now unlocking skills is a) find it as a reward and b) buy it if you can't then c) look for the boss with it) so I can't say for certain.

It's bounced around, though. I think the earliest you could find it was in the outpost at the beginning of the Shiverpeaks. Mountain Tablaeu or whatever it's called these days. But at other times it was first available in Lion's Arch or in an EA just outside of Lion's Arch. In other words, it's not introduced until well after the game's started.

At least it's not elite anymore but I agree that having to slot it and gimp your character is a pain.